Did 3G alt conversion, need second belt. How?

[JoshT]

I've got a Ford FE of unknown origin in my 68 F-100. I say that because it was supposedly has a 390 installed by my grandfather 30-40 years ago, and nobody alive today knows what he pulled it from. Truck was originally a 360 truck, but don't know if he kept the accessory setup that was on the truck or the setup that came with the replacement engine. It's also had Power Steering added in the last 30 years, but dad doesn't remember what the donor truck was for those parts aside from a later model Ford truck.

I installed a 3G alternator last year when I was putting the truck back on the road. Was a great move and I won't go back, but it's eating belts due to slippage. Doesn't matter how much I tighten the belt it starts back slipping, and eventually wears to the point it has no hope of grabbing. Like so many before me, I need a second belt on the alternator. Problem is I don't have an available grove on my pulleys and don't see how I could make it work if I did. I can easily add a two grove pulley to the alternator, but that belt would occupy the groves currently used by the power steering pump. If I could find the parts add an extra grove to the water pump and crank locations, I don't see how I could space the PS pump pulley out to line up with it.

Pictures of my current drive belt setup:

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Anybody know how I can get a second alternator belt and/or can point me to the parts I need?

[basketcase0302]

Did you already go over to the dark side and ask "parts monkey" as he seems to have all the answers (touche...)?

IF IT WERE MY TRUCK...
1) I'd try to get the PS pump belt off of the water pump/fan pulley, (YOU'LL SEE AN IMMEDIATE IMPROVEMENT IN YOUR PS BY DOING SO). Take a piece of 3/8" rope and run it around the crank and PS pulley then get that belt size to see if it will tighten up or not, (without the water pump/fan pulley on the belt). This will start the belt config you need by freeing up the water pump pulley for the 2nd alternator belt.

2) Get a 3 belt crank pulley, (I have one here for a 460-not sure if it will bolt to the 360/390 or not). I'll measure bolt circle if you'd like in the coming days. The 3 belt bottom crank pulley then gives you the 2nd belt to run like your existing alternator pulley is configured.

Disclosure: I'm no "parts monkey" so I'm unable to supply OBSOLETE FORD PARTS NUMBERS that you'll search the world over trying to procure, (so the aforementioned "advice" comes strictly from owning and working on Ford trucks for over 35 years.

[JoshT]

No. Parts monkey is good for a p/n of an original configuration, but he's about useless for anything that's not stock and seems to have no imagination for problem solving. It gets overly annoying to see him respond to everything with factory part numbers and obsolete parts dealers, especially when you know there has to be a suitable substitute in the aftermarket. I still try to play nice since he gets upset when one points that out.

All that said I'll still continue to ask questions in both places as well as a few others. Not everyone with a bumpsides or FE is on this forum and one of them may have the answers I seek. Bumpside specific I prefer this forum, but it is a bit slow at times. I haven't asked this anywhere else yet, but I may next week.

As for the topic at hand, I appreciate your suggestions. I'll think on them some more, but a couple of things stand out.

1) my PS works great with it wrapped around the water pump so not sure that could improve much, but I'll check it out. If I do this I'll have an issue of two different length belts on the alternator and no way to tighten them separately.

2) Not a bad idea. With both alternator belts around crank and wp I could use two of same length and not have a problem with adjustment. Problem I see is that for that to work the PS would have to move to the third grove on the crank. I don't know how I'd get the PS pulley moved out to line up with it.

Once again I'll do some more studying on these parts.

[sargentrs]

Think adding an idler pulley would help? That's what they did with the A/C options back in the day and they're readily available. Or if you can figure out how to mount it you can install a tensioner?

[JoshT]

Thought about that too, but no place to mount one that was see. Eventually I want to add A/C using the bracket that tylerb43 sells and could add an idler like whitsend did, but I'll still need to figure out the pulleys for that.

[JoshT]

Browsing the internet I did come across reference to a boss 289 or 302 alternator pulley that is 1.5-2 inches larger diameter than current pulley. I might try one of those to see how it responds, but I still think that dual belts will be the correct answer if I can figure it out. Idler pulley would probably work good too, but don't see how I can do it with current bracketry.

[sargentrs]

Here's a thought. Looking at the A/C engine compartment for the 302 http://www.fordification.com/tech/image ... rts302.jpg I see the belts routed with the p/s using 3 pulleys and the alternator only using the crank pulley. That would give you more surface area on the alternator. Also, on the engine diagrams http://www.fordification.com/tech/image ... 302-01.jpg they show 2 belts on the alternator and 1 on the p/s with a 3 groove water pump pulley. I'm assuming either configuration works for the FE also? Not sure of the alignment on the p/s belt to the 3rd groove on the water pump in yours, though. Maybe a 2 groove p/s pulley would put them in alignment? It appears to be common in Chebbie land. https://www.summitracing.com/search/par ... s&sw=Power Steering Pulleys

[DuckRyder]

FWIW, the doesn’t look like factory truck stuff to me, though my truck is a later model.

I’m pretty sure mine had dual ALT belts, though it also had AC at some point so who knows if thats “correct”.

CVF makes ribbed belt conversions, possibly March too if they are still around. They don’t have to be full blown serpentine conversions which are very expensive...

Have a look at the 358 mile 70 model photo gallery to see how the factory ran the belts.

http://www.fordification.com/70explorer_358miles.htm

[JoshT]

It's factory stuff, just possibly not factory stuff from a 68 or even a bumpside. As I mentioned previously, I don't know what the engine is actually from, or whether any of the accessory drive is original to either the truck or engine. What I can say for certain is that the Power Steering was added by my dad off of a later model truck, but he can't recall what year. Based on the steering gear box it was probably later dentside truck, but he can't say if it all came off the same vehicle either.

I have looked at CVF and Marches pulley selection. The three grove crank pulley would probably get me a step in the right direction, but don't see anything that would get the PS pulley where I need it.

I think I've figured out what pulley I need for the crank now. The Parts Number Index has got an error so what I thought was a two groove pulley, is actually a three groove pulley. Looking at pictures it also seems to be the pulley that Whitsend is running on his crank and I want to copy his setup when I eventually add A/C to this truck.

Now I've just got to figure out what Power Steering pump pulley to use with it. Seems to be a 6AA from what I've found, which is an old thread on his site that I found through google search of the crank pulley P/N.

I think I'm still going to give the larger alternator pulley a try first since it's easier to find (and cheaper) than those old crank and P/S pulleys I'd need.

[JoshT]

Ok so I've narrowed it down to two possibilities for now. Which route I take will probably depend on what I can find in a short period of time. Route 1 would be preferred, but Route 2 is probably a viable backup and/or short term solution.

1:
Following Jeff's second suggestion and the route I wanted to take, but didn't know how. That is add another pulley to crank, then move PS to outer groove on crank and use two inner groves for alternator. To do this I need to:

• Find a C8AZ-6A312-D crank pulley (marked C8AE-6312-D)
• Find a C7AZ-3A733-E water pump pulley (marked 6AA)
• Buy a 2 groove alternator pulley
• Find belts to make this work

2:
Installer larger pulley on alternator. So the whole point of installing a double alternator pulley, or an idler pulley like Whitsend as I mentioned above, is to gain more belt contact area on the pulley. Might not be as much gain as a double grove pulley, but the larger pulley would still increase contact area. Based on the quick guesstimate I did, the larger pulley basically splits the difference in contact area between the normal single and double groove pulleys. These pulleys are also readily available and can probably use the existing belt size. The draw back to this is that it turns the alternator slower, but I'm running a 135a 3G so I think it would still be adequate.


Either way I'll eventually end up with the first, but the second (if it works) would give me more time to hunt down the pulleys I need for the first.

[JoshT]

... and it looks like #1 takes the lead. Just bought the crank pulley I needed off a member of FEPower and that was the harder of the two to find at a reasonable cost. Should be able to scrounge up a P/S pulley in the next few days.

Hopefully once I have everything in hand it actually fits the way I think it will. Was kinda hoping that I could get away with a more budget solution, but this is definitely the better one if I've got the right parts.

Thanks for the input!

[Mercury100]

Another option is to find a 76 or older f500 to f750 three ton truck with the double alt pulleys.
I believe the engines were 330, 361, 391. Don’t think there was ever a 428 truck engine.
There’s lots around still in farmers yards

[JoshT]

I've seen a few that age around, but most are still in use. I've seen two that were no longer in use. One was in a local junkyard and yard owner wouldn't even talk about it, the other is a box truck parked behind a local chain hotel for storage. I'd have to buy the whole thing to get a few parts I could use.

Actually think I have most of the pieces in the mail now. Got the crank pulley I mentioned in my last post. Got a 6AA power steering pulley coming from eBay. The alternator pulleys are made aftermarket for the mustang crowd (same pulley) so I got one of those on the way for less than an original would cost. Picked up two new alternator belts yesterday since it should use the same size I'm using now. I'll just need to measure for the power steering belt when it gets here. Can probably use the belt listed at the auto parts stores, but one seem to have it in stock.

[basketcase0302]

"Mercury100"]Another option is to find a 76 or older f500 to f750 three ton truck with the double alt pulleys.
I believe the engines were 330, 361, 391. Don’t think there was ever a 428 truck engine.
There’s lots around still in farmers yards

I had a 65 amp Ford dual pulley alternator here from a SBF application for years. Not real sure what it off of but i wouldn't keep it if it weren't a SBF part.
Might still have it somewhere...

Good to know you're moving forward Josh.
I suggested it as I believe I did it to one of my dents many years ago when my belts were slipping.

[JoshT]

"Mercury100"]Another option is to find a 76 or older f500 to f750 three ton truck with the double alt pulleys.
I believe the engines were 330, 361, 391. Don’t think there was ever a 428 truck engine.
There’s lots around still in farmers yards

I had a 65 amp Ford dual pulley alternator here from a SBF application for years. Not real sure what it off of but i wouldn't keep it if it weren't a SBF part.
Might still have it somewhere...

Good to know you're moving forward Josh.
I suggested it as I believe I did it to one of my dents many years ago when my belts were slipping.

From what I found searching It seems that a Ford v-belt alternator pulley is a Ford v-belt alternator pulley regardless of what it came from. There seem to be three variations...

Small pulley - Used on everything
Large pulley - Used on High Performance applications like 428 SCJ
Small double pulley - Used on High Output (65amp maybe?) alternators

All of the part numbers are just updates and slight design changes of those three. Some might be stamped steel while others are cast, but they basically have the dimensions.

Actually seem that most of the V8 accessory pulleys and many of the water pump pulleys were the same, mostly the crank pulleys that were engine specific. That is referring to the FEs and Windsors, don't know about the 385, Cleveland, or Modified as they didn't come up in my searching.

At this point I've got everything bought, just waiting on the alternator pulley which should be arriving tomorrow. Next step is to find the time to start working on it. Got this to do as well as replacing the intake gasket and installing my new distributor and some other new ignition bits. Hopefully start on it next week if weather allows.

Still got to buy the new ignition bits and that might have to wait until next payday. Running Holley Sniper EFI so going to convert from Duraspark, to digital (?) timing control with the matching distributor, CD ignition box, and coil. More electronics, a big part of what started this whole mess and why I don't want to go back to 1G alternator.

EDIT: I've also heard from WhitsEnd since purchasing the parts. Seems that his idler pulley setup didn't work for running a single alternator belt and he went aftermarket pulleys and dual belt. That knocks that plan off the list, but it'll be a while (years?) before I get to the point of adding A/C so not a big issue. I think I can still use these pulleys then just with a slightly different belt arrangement. I think that