Edelbrock #2105 Intake won't fit, why?

[Manny]

After looking at the Edelbrock website, this intake specifically states "will not fit heavy-duty 361 c.i.d. and 391 c.i.d. Ford truck V8's". When I had my intake manifold cleaned, the guy corrected me as I showed him the 360 in my truck, saying "361 actually". Is there a way to tell the difference (is there even any difference?)? I thought the 360/361 were just different ways of describing the same engine because people started differentiating truck 390's as 391's. Can anyone clear this up? And could this have anything to do with the LGreen72F's problem?

-Joe

Good thought could be. The 361 and 360 are different. Different heads with odd valves weird pulleys, and some other external differences. Normally those are pretty obvious.

With this issue I thought back to Barry from survival's book. He mentioned how machined heads and other items can cause bad intake fitment. I am wondering if machined heads machined block deck in this engines past. That could dang sure be causing some issues. still a lot at .5mm

[LGreen72F]

Tried dry fitting with and without gaskets to no avail. A friend of mine who is supposed to be an expert with FE's says that even though the 360 and the 390 are the same block and are basically same with the externals, the heads on the 390 are actually wider, and therefore the edelbrock intake will not fit a 360, and no four-barrel aftermarket ones will fit it. The only conflict with this is I've seen others put an edelbrock intake on a 360 with no problem.

[DuckRyder]

Yeah, that isn’t correct.

Are the ports on the heads a uniform height from the deck? How about the Manifold?

[Nitekruizer]

The 360 and 390 are FE engines, sharing a common design with the 332,352,361(car engine only),390,406,410(FE only, not MEL),427 & 428. Although there were some more exotic head designs available for the 427's, but the 427 was never a truck engine. The 360 and 390 heads are the same for the same years. There was also a 361FT engine and 391FT engine that were used in Ford's heavy trucks. Chilton mistakenly lists the 361 and 391 as the only big V8s available in the '69 F-Series. This is wrong. The 360FE and 390FE were available and quite common in the F-100 to F-250 from '68 -'75 or so. While the FE and FT engines look similar in some ways, they're not the same. So, if your engine is an FT (unlikely) then, no, the aluminum intake won't work.

Once it's established that your engine is an FE, I would look at that suggestion about the dowels.

When I rebuilt my engine I installed the end seals with the stock iron 2V intake. After about a year they were leaking. When I installed my aluminum intake I chose to not use end seals. Too soon to tell, I'll post the result of that decision at a later date.

Do you still have your iron intake? If so, what is the casting number on it?

[MadJoe]

Ok, I've done some digging and only come up more confused. This post here seems to be fairly comprehensive, along with a little insight from Wikipedia. So far I've come up with:

Edsel offered the very first FE engine which was 361c.i. in 1958. These are rare, and as far as I can tell, the only FE 361's.
Later, in the early-mid '70's Ford reinforced (recast with reinforcing webs) 390 FE blocks, designated them FT and offered them in 2 flavors: 361 and 391, but still with the 4.05" bore of the 360/390, and same strokes as well. These blocks are practically identical to 390 blocks other than the reinforcing webs, were only put in HD trucks larger than F350's as far as I can tell, and are sought after by FE builders because they're more robust, and other than a larger hole for the distributor which can be made the right size with a simple bushing, they're completely interchangeable with the majority of other FE parts plus many, if not all were cross drilled from the factory.

Something else I found interesting is that FT 361/391's were externally balanced because of the beefier crank, which could make them hard to distinguish from a 410 or 428, but easy to distinguish from a 360 or 390. Also the intakes and heads on FTs were changed for lower end torque which makes them absolutely horrible for anything other than low RPM HD truck duty, so if you have an FT with original heads and intake, you'd know it by the absolute lack of any kind of top-end performance, but seemingly endless low-end torque.

So it looks like my mechanic might have been incorrect when he said my engine was a 361 because it's not externally balanced (at least as far as I can tell), and it revs over 4600 rpms without suffocating.

[tnlprt]

Ok, I've done some digging and only come up more confused. This post here seems to be fairly comprehensive, along with a little insight from Wikipedia. So far I've come up with:

Edsel offered the very first FE engine which was 361c.i. in 1958. These are rare, and as far as I can tell, the only FE 361's.
Later, in the early-mid '70's Ford reinforced (recast with reinforcing webs) 390 FE blocks, designated them FT and offered them in 2 flavors: 361 and 391, but still with the 4.05" bore of the 360/390, and same strokes as well. These blocks are practically identical to 390 blocks other than the reinforcing webs, were only put in HD trucks larger than F350's as far as I can tell, and are sought after by FE builders because they're more robust, and other than a larger hole for the distributor which can be made the right size with a simple bushing, they're completely interchangeable with the majority of other FE parts plus many, if not all were cross drilled from the factory.

Something else I found interesting is that FT 361/391's were externally balanced because of the beefier crank, which could make them hard to distinguish from a 410 or 428, but easy to distinguish from a 360 or 390. Also the intakes and heads on FTs were changed for lower end torque which makes them absolutely horrible for anything other than low RPM HD truck duty, so if you have an FT with original heads and intake, you'd know it by the absolute lack of any kind of top-end performance, but seemingly endless low-end torque.

So it looks like my mechanic might have been incorrect when he said my engine was a 361 because it's not externally balanced (at least as far as I can tell), and it revs over 4600 rpms without suffocating.

Wiki can be edited by anyone even the uniformed ..

The early 70's blocks are the D3TE and D4TE blocks ...The only difference between the FE and FT blocks are FT blocks may have a drain hole in the side of the block for the oil drain back from an air brake compressor and the block will have a slightly larger hole where the oil pump drive meets the Distributor. Can be remedied to use an FE distributor by installing a bushing in the block.

NO D3TE or D4TE blocks were crossdrilled or crossbolted from the factory.


It is extremely easy to tell a 410/420 FE crank from the FT crank.
If the larger snout and crank flange on the FT crank escaped you.
You could tell by the counterweights.
Of you could tell because the FT engine uses a steel crank while the 410/428 use a cast crank.

FT heads are easy to distinguish externally because of the exhaust ports and manifolds.

With the intake off. You would see that the exhaust heat risers are in a totally different place on the FT heads vs the FE heads

Why not just post a picture of the heads to remove all doubt as to what you have

[Clunker]

If your intake fits in the front but not in the back, it is probably not a compatibility problem. Someone in this thread mentioned earlier that the heads may not be square, and I agree. Measure the spacing between the heads at the front and at the back. If they are not the same, then you will need to pull and remount the heads. I have a Performer 390 intake on my 360 with D4TE heads, and it fits perfectly. I had to ditch the cork end gaskets because they were too thick, but I've had no leaks with proper surface cleaning and "The Right Stuff" silicone. In fact, I even hand-planed the intake with a file, and it still does not leak.

[MadJoe]

Wiki can be edited by anyone even the uniformed ..

The early 70's blocks are the D3TE and D4TE blocks ...The only difference between the FE and FT blocks are FT blocks may have a drain hole in the side of the block for the oil drain back from an air brake compressor and the block will have a slightly larger hole where the oil pump drive meets the Distributor. Can be remedied to use an FE distributor by installing a bushing in the block.

NO D3TE or D4TE blocks were crossdrilled or crossbolted from the factory.


It is extremely easy to tell a 410/420 FE crank from the FT crank.
If the larger snout and crank flange on the FT crank escaped you.
You could tell by the counterweights.
Of you could tell because the FT engine uses a steel crank while the 410/428 use a cast crank.

FT heads are easy to distinguish externally because of the exhaust ports and manifolds.

With the intake off. You would see that the exhaust heat risers are in a totally different place on the FT heads vs the FE heads

Why not just post a picture of the heads to remove all doubt as to what you have

Thank you for the clarification, I had forgotten about the drain hole in the FT blocks. However, I was not completely clear in what I was saying about not being able to tell certain engines apart; I meant while they were still fully together and installed in the vehicle. Of course when taken apart, or sitting on an engine stand/pallet you can find telltales all over the place, but if you're not familiar with the different heads, or they've been swapped out for FE heads in the 50 or so years the engine has been knocking around, without the luxury of having it out of the truck, or already disassembled you might easily mistake it for another of the myriad versions of FT/FE's out there was all I was saying.

-Joe

[WhitsEnd]

The reason you were thrown off track is that the 361 and 391 heavy truck "FT" intake is completely different. FTs have a larger distributor and the exhaust crossover is different. You do not have one of those engines (unless swapped in previously).

As for the cork end seals, use them only if dry fitting shows there is enough height (I still don't use them). Many aftermarket intakes won't allow their use to get the valve cover rail properly aligned.

As for the mismatch, I presume it is the Edelbrock casting itself, if a stock manifold fits like a glove. Otherwise, resetting the heads may be in order if dowels are not in place. If someone has previously ground on the cover rails to adjust for poor fit, you're SOL.

Figment issues at the rail are not uncommon with aftermarket FE intakes. There is a lot of variation possible in the casting process and the design of the FE makes it more complex. When the head mating surfaces are machined on the intake casting, a slight mislocation would result in severe misalignment.

There is a lot of poor and just completely wrong information out there (and on this site) for these engines. For future FE questions, I would go to FordFE.com or FEPower.net. The Performer 390 is not a great intake, but should be fine if the rest of the motor is basically stock. The only Edelbrock 4V intake I would suggest is the Performer RPM. However, you have what you have and at least it's lighter than the stocker. For a truck, the Ford Police Interceptor is not a bad choice either, but they're getting spendy.

[WhitsEnd]

Tried dry fitting with and without gaskets to no avail. A friend of mine who is supposed to be an expert with FE's says that even though the 360 and the 390 are the same block and are basically same with the externals, the heads on the 390 are actually wider, and therefore the edelbrock intake will not fit a 360, and no four-barrel aftermarket ones will fit it. The only conflict with this is I've seen others put an edelbrock intake on a 360 with no problem.

Your friend is not an FE expert. Heads are no different.

360 has shorter stroke. Rotating assembly is different. Period.

[Manny]

Tried dry fitting with and without gaskets to no avail. A friend of mine who is supposed to be an expert with FE's says that even though the 360 and the 390 are the same block and are basically same with the externals, the heads on the 390 are actually wider, and therefore the edelbrock intake will not fit a 360, and no four-barrel aftermarket ones will fit it. The only conflict with this is I've seen others put an edelbrock intake on a 360 with no problem.

Your friend is not an FE expert. Heads are no different.

360 has shorter stroke. Rotating assembly is different. Period.

Second that i have seen a edelbrock on a 360 no issues.