Borg-Warner overdrive won't shift

[pelesl]

I've been working on my Borg-Warner overdrive and I'm stumped.

I bought a new solenoid from 5th Avenue Auto Parts and the first drive out it worked; shifting back and forth as expected. On the way back home it didn't. Next trip out, didn't work going out but it did coming back. In other words, intermittent. The last few times it worked I remember the shift point seemed to be moving about a bit---like up to 35 mph instead of "28" (though the speedo seems to be about 10% high anyway). It worked very few times and it certainly seemed consistent enough, but maybe, just maybe, it wasn't. I just don't want to get into complicated theories as to why it's not working, but...

Since then, I've:

1. Cleaned the relay contacts and where the relay touches the firewall to make sure I have good conductivity.
2. Opened the governor (it looked great inside) and soldered a new wire to it.
3. Tested the governor on a bench by spinning it with cordless drill---it definitely switches on and off.
4. Tested the relay by grounding the appropriate terminal---solenoid actuates every time.
5. Tested the wire to the governor by grounding it at the connector under the truck---solenoid actuates every time.
6. Tested the kickdown switch to make sure it actually opens and closes each set of contacts.

Then I drive it, and nothing---the relay is not even clicking (it's not the easiest thing to hear, but if you listen for it, you'll catch it).

So today I did what I figured was the best test of all---I unscrewed the governor from the transmission (leaving all the wiring connected), turned the ignition on (engine not running), and spun the governor with my drill. Again, solenoid actuated every time. I did this at first with the kickdown switch bypassed but I figured I should try it with the switch connected and both work. I also checked that when the governor is installed the housing makes good contact to ground (testing between the governor and the frame). Then I go to drive it and nothing!

So I can't make sense of it now---everything points to the fact that the governor is not spinning, or some electrical connection is not working only when the engine is running/truck is moving. That's a bit far fetched to me. The governor driven gear looks new as does the driving gear, and when I peaked in there today I made sure they are meshing correctly and I just can't make sense of it. And the guts of the governor look new; although I didn't check exactly at what RPM it switches, I'll even go on the freeway at 55 60 mph and the relay doesn't click so I don't think it's an issue of the governor being "sticky".

Is it too wild to say that when the truck is driving around/vibrating the relay doesn't work? It's not the original one shown in the Borg Warner installations (the ones with the fuse on two clips on the outside); this one is certainly old enough to look "factory" but it's got the fuse in-line with the supply wire.

Anyone have an idea?

[fmartin_gila1]

Over the years, I have seen numerous instances where the wiring lugs would come just loose enough through vibration(wear) and heat(swelling and contracting) right at the spot where they are riveted to the electrical part on the inside to cause some intermittent operation. You may try to (gently) move any and all those wiring lugs at all connection points to see if there is any movement. Might also check that inline fuse holder for any corrosion or crud that might contribute to an erratic condition. If it is the glass with metal ends type fuse, they also have been known to lose internal connection. There is also the possibility that power could be lost through vibration or otherwise on up the power path to the inline fuse. Keep in mind the age and usage of these vehicles in the past.

Fred

[pelesl]

Over the years, I have seen numerous instances where the wiring lugs would come just loose enough through vibration(wear) and heat(swelling and contracting) right at the spot where they are riveted to the electrical part on the inside to cause some intermittent operation. You may try to (gently) move any and all those wiring lugs at all connection points to see if there is any movement. Might also check that inline fuse holder for any corrosion or crud that might contribute to an erratic condition. If it is the glass with metal ends type fuse, they also have been known to lose internal connection. There is also the possibility that power could be lost through vibration or otherwise on up the power path to the inline fuse. Keep in mind the age and usage of these vehicles in the past.
Fred

This is all good to know. I cleaned (sanded) all the contacts I can get to and the connections on the governor are tight (I soldered a new wire to it). Also all the connectors near the solenoid and governor are new (the wires had been ripped off at some point). The fuse is new and the fuse holder is relatively new (looks clean). But the relay looks old (rusty metal casing) so maybe that's the next thing to replace.

I think there's no avoiding jacking up the rear and running it on my driveway. Then I can check voltages, etc. easily.

[pelesl]

I raised the rear end today on the driveway and it shifts every time. I don't get it.

[pelesl]

An update: I wired up a couple of LEDs to the relay terminals. One to the governor terminal, another to the solenoid terminal. Now I can drive around and make sure things are turning on as they should. I am now 90% sure there's no electrical problem because the governor and solenoid lights both light at the same time and stay on. Things are a bit off (likely due to tire diameter) because the governor doesn't close until around 35 mph on the speedo. But it's consistent. The only electrical thing left to check is to make sure that at the solenoid I still get 12 volts (the skinny wire problem). But I doubt I'm not getting enough juice because on the driveway I could hear the solenoid actuating every time. Besides, 15 A through 10 feet of 18 gauge wire should drop just under 1 volt and I measured that as the RPM goes up I'm up around 13 something so I don't think this is the problem.

Then I suspected that my over-drive lockout cable was preventing the lever from going all the way back. It was, but by very little (I'll have to rework how it hooks on). In any case, running with it disconnected the lever sits all the way back and it still didn't shift.

Then I realized the other thing that changed recently---when I changed the solenoid, I drained the oil (which was completely black) and put in some Napa brand SAE 90 GL-1 rated mineral gear oil (as recommended by 5th Ave. Auto Parts). I've read that not using the right oil makes things "too slippery" and the OD won't shift. Yesterday I parked the truck pretty much where I changed the oil last time and opened the fill plug on the overdrive and oil started pouring out. Not much, but between what came out on its own and what I pulled out with a stick I got about 1.5 cubic inches out. The transmission was still pretty warm so maybe that's why the oil could pour out of the fill hole.

So any takers on the theory that it's overlubed in there? I'll try to go out for a spin today and see if there's any difference.

[Green23]

I've used that same NAPA GL-1 oil in my B-W OD with no problem. The B-W manual says that you can also use straight 40wt motor oil but I haven't tried that. Would like to hear if you've figured out the problem with your OD shifting yet.

[pelesl]

Haven't figured out the issue yet. I have to try some things this weekend after my exchange with Jim Crabtree.

I did do a bit of research on oils; I was hoping to find out that my viscosity was way off or something like that. But I don't think so.

First, the Borg-Warner manual (http://www.tocmp.com/manuals/trans/Borg ... 19_jpg.htm) seems to prefer SAE 40 or 50 motor oil, then SAE 80 and 90 gear oil. The viscosity ranges between all those at 100 deg C overlaps quite a bit. At 40 deg C it's a whole other ballgame; SAE 90 for instance has a range from 135 to 242 cSt. So I doubt the viscosity matters all that much at least for a new tranny; one that's some 50 years old may be another story.

The manual also explicitly says not to use Hypoid gear oil. Hypoid refers to the gear shape, not the oil itself, but evidently "hypoid" and "extreme pressure" usually go together, and *some* (not all) extreme pressure additives are harmful to yellow metals. In the Borg Warner there are at least bushings for the reverse idler that would suffer. Not sure what else.

There's been lots of discussions, too, about how the oil must be GL-1 rated. That's also not necessarily true. GL-1 is the safe choice because it has the least amount of additives (the higher the GL rating, the more "anti scuffing", etc. additives there are). But again, there are ways to make the additives safe for yellow metals.

There is a test for yellow metal corrosion (ASTM D-130). AGMA then came up with their own standard for gear oils (AGMA 9005-D94) which requires a 1B rating in a harsher version of the ASTM D-130 test. This means they require the second least corrosive rating. Normally, though, an oil with such a rating cannot be bought at your local parts store as they're meant more for industrial machines, etc. This document from Royal Purple has some info on it (http://royalpurpleindustrial.com/assets ... manual.pdf). I also then found an "independent" test conducted for Amsoil which shows how awesome their oil is (http://www.oilteksolutions.com/GearLubeWhitePaper.pdf). It's a good read if you're interested about all the tests oil can be put through.

In the end, the true compatibility and intended role of an oil can be pretty well hidden in marketing crap. So if you've got something unique, you've got to get down to the nitty gritty and see if the oil is OK to use. In the case of the BW overdrive, it evidently needs to be yellow metal safe. Many of Royal Purple's oils say "pass" fro copper and bronze corrosion tests. If you need to know better than that, you'll need to look for something that has an ASTM D-130 rating of 1A or 1B. Amsoil Severe Gear Synthetic EP 75W-90 (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/svg.aspx) for example clearly states its level of yellow metal compatibility, viscosity, and foaming. Many times this is available in the "tech sheet" of the oil if you can find it.

As for viscosity, I would guess that choosing anything other than what's specifically listed has to depend a bit on what temperatures you expect. I doubt my transmission gets to boiling point but I don't have a probe so I don't know---and I don't know how above 40 deg C it gets. If someone asked me I'd say that if you get a two-rating oil (like 75W90 instead of just 90) I'd say that as long as the second number is the same you'd probably be OK. In the case of the Amsoil, the viscosity at 40 deg C is a bit lower than a the requirement for SAE 90 but in southern California that ain't gonna make a difference.

[pelesl]

An update:

I drained the oil carefully into a pan (which then my dog stepped on and spilt all over the place) but I did manage to rescue some "fresh out of the casing" oil and it is black. Doesn't look burnt, just like there's a lot of junk in it. Very fine junk, almost like printer toner. When you just get it on your finger it looks clean. In low light it almost looks green. Anyway, certainly not the color of the fresh stuff. So definitely the transmission is dirty. This oil is less than 100 miles old.

I lifted one rear wheel in the air and started playing with the overdrive. I actuated the solenoid (grounded the governor) and spinned the wheel in the air as if the truck were coasting forward, but nothing happened. The solenoid is definitely moving as I can feel it and I can hear the springs ringing upon turning off the ignition and the plunger comes back in. I tried using lower voltages (mine will stay engaged with as low as 7.7 volts) thinking the pawl was being pushed too hard but then I realized this doesn't change anything because the solenoid is actually compressing (or tensioning) a spring which then pushes in the pawl so as long gas the solenoid is "in" the spring is in full effect.

This morning I read through the procedure in the ford manual. It says, more or less:

1. Put the transmission in neutral.
2. Turn the drive shaft by hand (it will turn both directions if it's in neutral; I turned it as if the wheel up in the air was coasting forward, which is clockwise on the driveshaft if you're looking from the transmission to the differential).
3. Put power to the solenoid while the driveshaft is moving.
4. Put it in gear. The drive shaft should lock up.

I couldn't quite do it since I'm by myself, but here's what I found. The only way I can get the OD to shift is if I turn the solenoid on while it's in neutral, spin the wheel a bit, then shift into gear, try to spin the wheel *backwards* (driveshaft locks up immediately) and then spin forward, at which point the pawl is clearly going in because the driveshaft becomes locked in both directions. If I then turn off the solenoid the thing starts "freewheeling" again as expected.

In no other way could I get it to shift. That is, I *have* to put it in neutral first, and I *have* to turn the wheel backwards until it stops before turning it forward.

I'm not sure how this test is supposed to work; I figured the sun gear would be stopped if you shift into gear but the engine is not running, and thus the overdrive wouldn't be able to shift. That must be why you have to turn it in neutral first for this test.

Still I think that my having to turn the wheel backwards first for it to shift is evidence of the problem I'm having. I'm still ready to blame the friction on the blocker ring but it's hard for me to visualize what's going on here.

A friend suggested I put some kerosene in the transmission to "wash it out" before I refill it. What do you think of that?

[fmartin_gila1]

Search for "old burb" it is an early Chevy Suberban club or bunch. There is some good info there pertaining to the BW Od units along with some other things that could benefit the older F100 bunch. Quite a few how-to's.

Fred

[pelesl]

Search for "old burb" it is an early Chevy Suberban club or bunch. There is some good info there pertaining to the BW Od units along with some other things that could benefit the older F100 bunch. Quite a few how-to's.

Fred

Thanks Fred. I'm also posting at http://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads/ubb ... ber=878101; seems to be mostly Chevy guys. I'll see if I can find this club.

[fmartin_gila1]

"Stovebolts" used to be the name all chevy's were known as. You might also look for "inliners", this group has to do with any brand of vehicles powered by inline engines. There is also a group that has to do with the older IHC vehicles. The BW OD units were universally used back in the day so there should be some info in different places wherever you might stumble onto it.

Fred

[pelesl]

I've basically convinced myself that I need to open up the overdrive, and that the blocker ring doesn't have enough friction to rotate and let the pawl in.

Yesterday I filled the overdrive and transmission with kerosene. Sloshed it around some (didn't want things to get too hot, so I didn't go very fast). The first batch certainly came out dirty, but not terrible. Then I put in more kerosene and with both wheels in the air got to about 50 mph in 3rd gear. After that the kerosene came out pretty black. After letting it sit and filtering it through paper towels I could see plenty of metal flakes---yellow and steel. Nothing to cause alarm if I assume that no one's rinsed this thing out in 50 years.

Then I put fresh oil in. I ran out while filling the transmission; I'm guessing I'm about half a quart short. You could tell things were nice and "clean" because shifting to come out of the driveway was tough. Then when I got up to speed for the governor to close it shifted into overdrive. By the next light it wasn't shifting anymore. The only conclusion I can come up with is that by the second light the oil had coated things better and the blocker ring wouldn't rotate anymore with the pawl pushing on it.

So I'm going to top it off and drive it for a while. At some point I'll pull it out and then we'll know for sure.

[pelesl]

An update:

I don't drive the truck much, but I have to say that, at least psychologically, the OD seems to shift most of the time now (as in almost always). I had one very strange case: I was driving around and suddenly it became very difficult to go into second gear. I managed to get it in, and then the electrical part of the overdrive seemed to have failed---the governor would switch to ground (I still have the LED's wired) but the solenoid would never turn on. This only happened once, and the next time I drove the truck it shifted fine. Now I get a little worried whenever I feel second gear is hard to get into; I've had some slight synchro issues since then but nothing weird.

So I'm going to chalk this one up as "it just needed to be driven". Who knows how many years the solenoid had been missing. I'm still going to pull everything out at some point.

[Donnie]

Hi, I speak automatic's & am not familiar with your trans.. I read the complete thread & the only thing that I would question is a 15 amp load going thru 18 gauge wire.....I'm sure that this is not your problem, but I just felt that I should mention this...Donnie

[guhfluh]

I agree, I noticed that also. 18ga is much smaller than I'd be using for that much load. 12-14 is probably what I'd be using, just going off the top of my head.

I also am wondering how you are shifting the trans. I thought I had read that you have to let off the accelerator, let it engine brake and get back on the gas for them to shift. I thought I read that was the "correct" way to shift them into OD. Am I correct and is that what you are doing? Or are you just cruising or accelerating and letting it shift? I'd have to go back and reread the instructions to be sure, but I figured it was worth bringing up just in case. I bring that up because of the way you said it shifted with a wheel off the ground, and it sounded like that is the normal way it shifted to me, but you seemed to think it was not.