Finally gonna do it; TopLoader 4 speed to TKO-600 swap!

[HIO Silver]

Hey fellas. I'm planning on a TKO-500 swap to replace the NP435 behind my 360FE but have yet to find an answer to my question even after researching and visiting Modern Driveline (MDL), American Powertrain (APT), Keisler Auto, and Hurst Driveline Conversions (HDC). I've emailed them but have received no response thus far. Maybe they are stumped too....

An earlier post stated an option to keep the OEM belhousing, using an adapter plate, and getting a regular, non-short shaft TKO-500 with 10-splines. I'd rather not get the Quicktime bell to save about $500....MDL offers two spacer plates but refers to "narrow" and "wide" pattern bellhousings on this page: http://www.safepay.net/cgi-bin/shop/car ... ndriveline

APT offers one spacer plate but their application guide, like the others, doesn't address truck applications.

I have removed the doghouse in preparation to pull the engine and transmission for detailing, an E-Street EFI swap, front end rebuild, DJM beams, power disc brakes, headers, and custom exhaust. I should be done by the time the TKO arrives but am lacking this info......I'm not sure whether I have narrow or wide pattern since it has an NP-435 rather than the Toploader the OP replaced. So, what do I have in front of this NP??? Or more accurately, is the NP wide or narrow

[69timemachine]

I would say to wait until you have it out and then measure the bolt pattern you have. Is it possible your bell may be drilled for both? The Ford-spec TKO has the same pattern as the TL3 and TL4, which is 8.5" wide and 6.375" tall. I think psquare75's 460 dentside was using a T19 bell and the Ford-spec TKO-500 bolted right up. Is the T19 and NP bell the same? It's important to get the Ford-spec TKO so you can reuse your tranny mount, and I'm not sure if the bolt pattern for the bell is different for that reason too. I wouldn't bother with a QuickTime bell either, but if you get it all apart and there is no way you can use the bell you have, then if you can find an FE to TopLoader bell locally or on eBay, then it should just slide right together. The plate on mine is just sandwiched between the bell and trans; it doesn't actually bolt to the bell or trans.

[HIO Silver]

I would say to wait until you have it out and then measure the bolt pattern you have. Is it possible your bell may be drilled for both? The Ford-spec TKO has the same pattern as the TL3 and TL4, which is 8.5" wide and 6.375" tall. I think psquare75's 460 dentside was using a T19 bell and the Ford-spec TKO-500 bolted right up. Is the T19 and NP bell the same? It's important to get the Ford-spec TKO so you can reuse your tranny mount, and I'm not sure if the bolt pattern for the bell is different for that reason too. I wouldn't bother with a QuickTime bell either, but if you get it all apart and there is no way you can use the bell you have, then if you can find an FE to TopLoader bell locally or on eBay, then it should just slide right together. The plate on mine is just sandwiched between the bell and trans; it doesn't actually bolt to the bell or trans.

Thanks for the input. I was contacted by MDL this morning and was told that the NP435 is a wide pattern. I'm going with a standard length, 10-spline TKO-500 and a spacer plate. Just sandwiched eh? Interesting.

By not going with the QT bell, that saves around $600... mo' money I can put towards other goodies or no goodies at all. Gonna put in a new clutch though cuz I'm rather confident it is OEM as are alot of other parts on my rig.

Btw, at 70 mph with a 3.50 rear gear, the FE and its torque should be lumbering along at 1900 rpm - maybe 20 mpg isn't impossible after all.

Keep ya posted.

[67 Camper Special]

.
Btw, at 70 mph with a 3.50 rear gear, the FE and its torque should be lumbering along at 1900 rpm - maybe 20 mpg isn't impossible after all.

Keep ya posted.[/quote]


I am curious on the mileage front. I have a nice 72 460/C6 in my CS, but I can't drive it as much as I like because of cost @ 10mpg. If I could make it get 15mpg I would leave the 460. Currently it has a 411 rear gear which I am thinking of changing to something in the 365 range.

Is it even possible to get any mileage out of a 460? I am also contemplating a Izuzu diesel swap.

Thanks, Larry

[69timemachine]

It is possible to get mileage out of big blocks; tricky, but possible. I used to have a '76 Chevy El Camino that I put a '77 pickup 454 into. It was basically stock with many miles on it, had a 4 barrel QuadraJet, TH400 tranny (which is no overdrive), and 2.73 gears. The thing ran strong even with those highway gears because of the torque. I took it 43 miles to work one morning, then back and topped it off. I had made it a point that trip to drive sensible and to not once kick in the secondaries, and I was rewarded with 17 mpg FROM A 454 WITH NO OVERDRIVE. I was in shock! The trick is for the engine to be stock or a mild build, drive it sensibly and try not to put that 4 barrel to use, and have either gears numerically lower than 3.00:1 or an overdrive transmission. You really need those RPM's kept down below 2,000 rpm with a large displacement engine to have mileage. The aerodynamics of our trucks hurts us a little since the frontal area is so large, but driving less than 65 helps that some.
The beauty of having an overdrive tranny is that you can still run 3.50, 3.73, 4.11 gears so you have that performance when you want it, but you have the overdrive gear to use at higher speeds to still keep the RPM's down. Truly the best of both worlds!

[HIO Silver]

There's a certain point with these aerodynamic bricks that efficiency drops. Overcoming aero deficiency comes at an exponential cost of fuel specific consumption.

But.... 3.50 rear gear.. Check! ... TKO-500 from Modern Driveline... Check!

I decided on a short-shaft TKO-500. A long shaft version would require an adapter plate so now it's bolt in an go. The guys at MDL are excellent to deal with. Communication was spot on, parts arrived as promised, and very thorough in filling my order. In addition to the trans, I picked up a clutch kit, white Hurst shift knob, shift arm, and boot (I spec'd an OEM 69-70 Mustang boot cuz it is slotted for the arm), back-up light pig tail, speedo gear, rear trans mount, and three quarts of Syncromesh lube.

The shifter is mid-mounted.. that's why it reads "wrong".


Still need a driveshaft and yoke since mine is a two-piece because the NP435 is compartively short.

Here's my 70 as she sat last Sunday... more to go!

[tbone6]

[69timemachine]

Sounds like you're well on your way! Keep us posted!

[69timemachine]

A little report on my truck; I only have another 150 miles to finish breaking in my tranny, then I can change the fluid and see how it will do under some full throttle. I have enough mileage so far that I have been able to see what kind of MPG I'm getting while driving around town and on the country roads. I haven't had a chance to try any long-distance cruising yet, but am pretty pleased with the around-town numbers. I have been logging my miles and fuel for the last few years that I have had the Cleveland finished, and the overall average with the TopLoader/3.70 setup was 9.4 MPG AVERAGE. Now with the TKO-600/4.56 setup, I'm getting 11 MPG AVERAGE in the short three tanks since the swap. If I did my math right, that should be a 17% mileage increase. This seems pretty good to me considering the mods my engine has and my rear gear choice. You guys running mild engines and taller gears with your TKO's may see an even higher increase than me. I can say that the best I ever managed with the 4-speed was 10.5 MPG ONCE out of all those tanks of fuel, and in only my third tank since the swap, I already managed a 13.3 MPG figure! I believe that 17% number should go up closer to 20% or 25%, given more tanks to average.

[tbone6]

Excellent results! Thanks for the update.

[yeager351]

I got my tracking # yesterday. And mine is on its way. Tko600 with the short shaft. Yeeeeeehaw!!!!!

[69timemachine]

Sounds real good! Feel free to post your info and progress up here too! I would think that everything in the swap would be about the same with an FE engine. Let us know though!

[HIO Silver]

Reverend HIO Silver: " Do you Ford FE take Miss TKO-500 to be your worthy transmission? Do you promise to deliver torque and horsepower?"

Ford FE: "I DO"

Reverend HIO Silver: "Do you Miss TKO-500 take Ford FE to be your worthy engine? Do you promise to provide five forward gears, more miles per gallon in overdrive at 2000 RPM, and smoky, billowing burnouts?"

Miss TKO-500: "Sure do"

Reverend HIO Silver: "May I have the bellhousing bolts please"



Reverend HIO Silver: "I am happy to present Mr. & Mrs. FE-powered TKO-500"


____________________________________________

Off to the honeymoon...






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Whew!.. installing the engine and trans as an assembly was a total production!! Took me an hour angling, tilting nudging, tilting, and nudging but it's in... I was really careful and experienced only one scratch and that was the clutch level contacting the leading edge of left engine perch. Otherwise, that's it!

A couple of tips....... lay cardboard in select places will stave off contact. The power brake booster contacted the valve cover a couple of times but I draped the fabric cover over it and it came out unscathed. I also recommend installing the tilting engine sling close to the intake so it clears the firewall's upper seam with the cowl assembly. The sling narily cleared but leaving the chains long would not have provided vertical angle to set the engine its the perches.

I'm celebrating with a few cold beers because this is a milestone.

[69timemachine]

Looks like a match made in heaven! LOL

Yeah, when I dropped in my Cleveland, I had the whole front clip on my truck. Every other engine install I've ever done (in other vehicles), I've always had the tranny attached too, but this time I got a bad vibe from the high core support and crossmember under the bellhousing that these trucks have. I dropped the engine in with the shorty headers in place and with the bellhousing installed. I put a 4x4 wood block (which fit perfectly) between the bellhousing and crossmember to support the back of the engine until I got around to installing the tranny from underneath. It worked out nicely!

Looks like you're getting a lot accomplished! Keep up the good work and keep the progress reports coming!

[Calfdemon]