FORD F100 1979 C4 - No forward gears/only reverse

[ADE ROWBERRY UK]

My beloved blue bertha 1979 F100 Custom lost all forward drive about a week ago with only reverse working (with some chatter).
On getting underneath to inspect, I could see that the kickdown link arm had detached from the shifter because the securing e-clip had come off.
I don't know how long it had been missing. I removed the transmission pan to find horrible brown fluid & mostly non-metallic residue.
Having read various forums over the weekend, it seems likely that the forward clutch set has burnt out (probably because the kickdown shifter wasn't connected).
I cannot afford to send the truck away to replace the clutch set so have decided to drop the transmission using the help of 2 other guys, though I only have truck type axle stands. My plan is to order a high performance rebuild kit for the C4 box & strip / re-assemble it. I do not have the factory manual for the truck or for this C4 gearbox however & I am not sure if the technical drawings of the C4 on the Fordification site apply to my '79 truck. I could buy an ATSG disc version of the manual for Ford C4&C5 transmissions I guess.
Just wondered if anyone agrees with the likely diagnosis that it is the forward clutch pack that needs replacing & in view of the near certainty now that I need to drop the transmission - is there a video on Youtube or procedure steps with photos preferably to follow to remove the gearbox please?
I have never attempted anything like this before so any advice/guidance would be very welcome.
Also - as I live in the UK, I have to order parts from the US which takes more time (&money) - therefore if I need to order any other parts when re-assembling the gearbox, it would be good to know this in advance......
I am inclined to go with ordering the High performance super rebuild kit (from http://www.onlinetransmissionsparts.com) because I would like to get the engine tuned up to improve the BHP output - should I replace the torque converter or will it be OK ??
What should I look for as the cause of the reverse chatter please?
Any website references/advice etc. would be gratefully received.
While I want to get big bertha back on the road asap, I want to get this right.........
Best regards & thanks
Adrian R.

[sargentrs]

Search YouTube for C4 rebuild. I bookmarked an 8 video series on rebuilding a C4 in preparation for mine. If any of you transmission guys out there have the time, check it out and critique it for us. It would be nice to know if it's a waste of time.

[Donnie]

Adrian, yes it it a foreward clutch failure..the residue that is in your pan is the friction lining from the foreward clutch..
The ATSG manual is the BEST reference manual you can buy...The disc version would be a 2nd choice...
How many miles on this trans, & how hard were the miles put on? Driven hard, pulling a trailer, off road use, etc.
The converter is a judgment call, relative to the prior questions....Some guy's just flush the converter with solvent & other choose to get a reman. I have taken a lot of C4 converters apart in my time & found a lot of them were not worn too badly..others worn out completely.
There are some minor check's you can do your self when you get it on the bench...I have not looked at the kit that you are getting, but will check it later...Be sure to get a thrust washer kit WITH SELECTABLES, you won't need them all, but if you don't get the complete kit , you will need one that you don't have..The lo/rev band may check out OK, but replace the rear servo piston as it will be brittle.
A low roller clutch & a 2nd gear band are a for sure replace item's.
The rev chatter could be the valve body valves sticking+ low pressure, or the forementioned rev servo piston, the one on the R/ rearof the case..
I will look at the kit that you referenced & the YT links mentioned in the previous post, by Sargent, & get back on tomorrow....Donnie

[ADE ROWBERRY UK]

Well, after 8 hours of carefully following removal instructions, lying on my back & jacking up the truck front end as high as I dared, my friends Brian/Tris & I finally managed to detach the transmission - wow, do I have a lot of respect for mechanics who do this for a living! That said, this job would have been easier if the whole truck had been jacked up or use of a pit under the truck to allow standing - whether we will get the thing back in or not remains to be seen!
Anyway, next step is to obtain the ATSG manual for a late C4 transmission - I can buy the CD-rom version but even ATSG themselves don't appear to print it anymore. Can anyone advise where I might be able to obtain a copy please? Does anyone have any more advise as to what I should replace?
Donnie mentioned some items - but I am not sure where to order them from - can Donnie or anyone else help me pls?
I bought this truck about 18 months ago here in the UK, it was registered in Louisiana & restored there I think but I have no idea who restored it & therefore whether it was driven hard or not. I doubt that it has been hard used here in the UK.
I will probably come back to folks out there with more questions in due course - but if anyone can help answer on the above points it sure would be appreciated!
Many thanks Ade

[Donnie]

Ade, get a clean workbench where you can take your trans apart & walk away from it when you get frustrated or tired.
I would suggest taking it apart using your reference material, what ever you choose...C4 & C5 drive trains are almost the same, the valve bodies & converters are diff. ----BEFORE you order any parts...You are sure to find something that is not in the kit
I looked at the 8 part series that SARG mentioned & found after only viewing the first two, when I saw the tech remove the servos before pulling the pan, & then dropping one of the band struts down into the drive train, I concluded that he had no clue where he was going, I didn't watch the rest........GET a good reference book, disc or whatever you can find......search Amazon & Ebay...
Production rebuilders here in the states are forcing a lot of mom & pop shops to become INSTALLER"S.........thus many are closing, therefore you may find a manual on line.....I know that they are out of print & I don't have one to loan you.
Some tips: check your end play before tear down, push the input shaft into the trans by hand & pry the gear train foreward with a large screwdriver, prying behind the sun shell, ( this part looks like a bell, 4 inches thick)///record this endplay for later...In your thrust washer kit you will have a selectable washer or 2 that will give you the correct end play.. there is a thrust washer that is ALWAYS worn , I will try to find it in the drawing that is provided in the link that you gave me...& give you the #, use all brand name parts, no generic,,,,stick with Transtec gasket & seal set , or Precision International. Raybestos or Borg Warner clutches & front band, check all bushing's for wear, a complete kit will give you more than you need, but better to have a few left over than to reorder....THE 3 bushings mostly worn are front pump, rev-hi drum & extension housing..
I could elaborate, but a good manual will detail more than I can type....If you have ANY question's post back, I will try to help you ...Donnie

I'm not sure where to tell you to order from.there are many resellers on line, some buy From Transtar & other wholesaler's & resell with a small mark up....Pick out a few & I will opine.........You can try Transtar & see if they will sell to you?????/ I know their sales are down & A lot less transmissions are being built now that a lot of folk's are opting for a new cheap car...........better fuel mileage, no interest loans , etc.

[Donnie]

I just looked at Trans Parts On Line, there is a pretty good list of parts that you can buy, without buying a lot of parts that you will not need.# 232 is a washer that is always worn,, Tip: take a lot of photos---wire your washers to their respective parts..there are 11 , so it is easy to get mixed up on these..a lite wear on a washer is ok.......they are copper clad steel washers ,flashed with babbit, as long as they are not worn or grooved, many can be reused...............HTH, Donnie

[ADE ROWBERRY UK]

Hello Donnie,
Began disassembly on Saturday - made good progress I think.
I used George Reid's 'How to Rebuild & Modify Ford C4 & C6 Automatic Transmissions' as well as the Haynes Ford Automatic Transmission Overhaul'.
I am am nowhere near finished yet, BUT, on removing the forward clutch planet carrier, there is a little oscillating play in the planets (ie. you can visibly twist them on their axis), one of the planets is particularly noticeable in this respect). By contrast, the low-reverse planets carrier is shiny aluminium with no play on the planets at all (well, that I could detect anyway).
So, regrettably, looks as if the forward clutch planet carrier needs replacing.
Then I took out the forward clutch steel & clutch discs, all of the clutch discs were virtually down to the metal with no lining left whatsoever.
The forward clutch band lining is also a brown/black with some marking & appears heaving worn.
The low-reverse band lining appears much better but this will be replaced.
I haven't removed the low-reverse clutch discs yet, these will be replaced anyway but I am interested to see if they are as worn as those in the forward clutch assembly.
There was viscous black gunk behind the H servo cover but piston & spring are OK I think though the seal needs replacing as it has hardened with age.
One or two of the thrust washers are worn too.
So I will need to source a replacement kit for the seals, thrust washers, steel/clutch discs, vacuum modulator etc (I know I can buy all of these as a kit); critically though, I need to source a forward planetary gear carrier & need to decide on 3 or 6 planet carrier. I see that the 6 pinion carriers are about $350-$400.
I haven't yet found a source for the 3 pinion planets.
Performance Automatic (recommended in the George Reid book) & TCI Auto offer 6 pinion planetary's for the C4 - I am just wondering if there are sources either of secondhand planetaries or if this is economy is not worth the risk, whether I might simply consider replacing with a standard 3 pinion planetary.
Also given that a 6 pinion planetary cost + seal/clutch disc replacement kit might stretch to circa $550, whether I should consider cutting my losses & replacing the entire gearbox - Performance offer one fo about $1700 - though this is a lot of money.
If anyone has any thoughts (Donnie in particular) I would be very grateful.
My preference is to order a new planetary + kit for seals /clutch discs etc. - question is what type of planetary & where to order from?

[Donnie]

Hello again, you made reference to the lo/rev clutches, if I may correct you, they are the rev/hi clutches used only in 3rd gear & reverse..
You may find that they are not as bad as your forewards, but will show wear...NOTE: in your clutch drum's there are several snap rings, be careful where they go as they are not all the same thickness....in fact the top snap ring is selective, so you can set the clearance to specs.
Build your drums to the low side of specs, especially the forewards as they are applied in all foreward gears and do not change once you are in gear & moving foreward. ALSO replace the spring plate in the foreward drum as it will be fatigued from heat. This is the one that returns the piston.....Also if there is a wavy steel plate in that drum , toss it & use all flat steels..This may give you a firm garage shift, from park into drive, that will not hurt anything, if it doesn't bother you, if you want a softer apply reuse it. It just softens the apply.
Unless you need a 6 pinion planet for drag racing......SAVE YOUR MONEY, a good 3 pinion will last a LONG time under normal use....
Two thing's to check on your planet's besides the gear wear which is obvious are: the end play of your pinions in the housing & gear "wobble"
the pin inside of the pinion gear will "hourglass" or "keystone" allowing the gear to wobble. I think that you noticed this, & the washers allowing too much movement fore & aft.
There are places here in the states that strip down core boxes & salvage the good parts & resell them.. I can send you a couple of contacts, if you want to save some $$...The 3 pinion planet should still be available from Ford for not too much if you want to go new.
$1700 is an out of sight figure for a stock C4.....WOW.....you can build this trans & do a Super job for 500 bux American.
I'm not sure if I answered all your questions, but if you wish more communication, I usually check in here at least every other day

DONNIE

[ADE ROWBERRY UK]

Donnie,
Thanks for the advice, when you say to "Build your drums to the low side of specs, especially the forewards " - do you mean build with minimum gaps/clearance between discs? (sorry for my basic terminology).
How do I know what the correct clearance should be?
I am a little bewildered in terms of what parts I need to order, & whether or not these parts are included in the various kits available.
Frequently, kits do not list every part in them, so how can I avoid double ordering of some parts & then finding myself short on others?
Because I live in the UK, I am probably going to have the parts sent to a friend who lives in Houston; he can then hopefully bundle them up & send onto me here.
May be I can draw up a list of what I intend to order & would you mind casting your eye over it to advise if I have chosen wisely or if I have perhaps omitted anything?
I will check out the Trans Part website to see if I can draw up a list of parts based on your advice.
Sorry to put you out & hope you can continue to assist.
I wish you lived around the corner & not 3-4,000miles away...
Tks Donnie

[Donnie]

Ade, yes, build your foreward pack with about .020 clearance as these are applied about 98 % of the time, in ALL foreward positions, once applied they do not release until you select neutral or park or rev. Unlike the 2nd gear band which must stop the drum that it is spinning on EVERY time 2nd sear is applied ( OFTEN)...........this band wears out much faster than the LO/REV band which is only applied in MANUAL low & rev. The rest of the time is just sits there & is often reused...The rev servo must be replaced as it will be hard from heat.
There is a thrust washer that wears out ALWAYS, it is located at the rear of the front planet. If you get a thrust washer complete kit, you will get the selectables that you will need for your final end play...they are the 2 on the front pump....you will get a few that are not worn , but I would get the complete kit & replace them all. The bushings that you will need are , the front pump, the extension housing & sometimes the bushing in thr rev hi drum (check this fit by placing your drum on the pump...A 1 gallon paint can makes a nice stand to set your pump on & stack your drums...On final assy, you will stack everything from the rev/hi drum to the rear of the sun shell & slide it into the case as a unit.. If you can order a small tub of trans jel it will aid you in keeping thrust washer in place..if not use vaselene. NO WHEEL BRNG GREASE>
Send me your list & I will opine on your choices...glad to
BTW, Bobby Ford & Average are also good trans men, so don't miss anything that they may add.
I like Transtar & Precision International as suppliers, you may be able to check their sites
There are a lot of resellers on the web that buy from them & resell at a profit...look for the name TransTec or Transtar when surfing
I will check in tomorrow........Donnie

[Donnie]

Ade, how are you makin' out.............Donnie

[ADE ROWBERRY UK]

Hello Donnie,
Sorry for my absence, I was away in Wales over the weekend enjoying some rare summery weather here.
I will get the full list to you tomorrow - will probably opt for the full bush kit, thrust washer kit, overhaul kit from Transtec (it's a bit annoying that they don't list all of the parts that the kit contains though - I assume it includes clutch bands, discs, gaskets & all seals), forward planetary gear from Broader Performance (they have one for $60 & another for $100 but not sure what the difference is.......)- have managed to get 30L cleaning solvent (brake & clutch cleaning fluid) & 10L of ATF type F transmission fluid. I need a drill mounted pump to flush out transmission coolant radiator but have paint filters to be able to re-use the solvent. Lots of parts to gather together - it all takes time...I've arranged to borrow an air compressor as I don't have one plus I can get hold of a steam cleaner but not sure this is necessary as I have gallons of solvent to clean the case etc.
Do I need to replace the H serve cover? I've read that the seal/cover is integral & it might be wise to replace this too...
Will revert with more detail tomorrow hopefully.
Ade.

[Donnie]

Ade, I think that you will find that Transtec only supplies paper, rubber, ring's,& seals in their kits. Which are FINE kits.....
Transtar , on the other hand puts together an overhaul package using Transtec parts & adding the rest: clutches , bands etc.
I dont think that Transtar will sell to the end user.......not sure of their policy since the Original owner sold out out.
BUT, have a look at this site & ask them any questions about what comes in their kits.. I THINK
they buy from Transtar & sell at a good price...I just found their site. DON'T know ANYthing about them......have a look
Nothernautoparts.com..................they sell a Transtar/Transtec package..........more tomorrow..Donnie

[Donnie]

Ade, I forgot to answer yo servo question, here goes in order from softest to most firm 2nd gear apply, you will need the cover & piston as a set
W K Z B R A H C .............H-IS NOT BAD, C is better......if you are using a shift program , opt for Transgo mild not wild...unless you are drag racing this truck, just use the shift improver kit.FROM TRANSGO........I just walked a guy on another forum thru a C4 using an -A- servo & he is HAPPY...
Your choice.......there is also a billet servo that has more bite than the -C-......but I don't think that you will need it........Donnie
Ask your supplier if you have a choice of clutch mfg's. ....Raybestos & Borg Warner are most used.....some like Alto & there are others..
Stick with the BRAND'S..............

[Donnie]

Ade, forgot to add a must replace assy......that is the roller clutch spring & roller kit in the rear of the unit.....Donnie