390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
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390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
The problem has a bit of history. After I bought the truck, I was driving it and the timing chain slipped a notch on the old nylon gear that came from the factory. I paid a 'friend of a friend' mechanic to put a new timing chain and gears on it along with a new intake, carb, valve job, etc... Didn't touch the bottom end. It woudln't tune right and the timing was really 'jumpy', it would be at a different setting each time I checked it. It made some odd ticking sounds. I drove it for about 100-150 miles until it stopped running suddenly. The distributor gear had sheared. It also damaged the gear on the cam. After a year or two I decided to rebuild it and restore the bodywork and interior on the '68 F250 that it is in.
So I completed the rebuild of my 360FE into a 390FE with the help of a knowledgeable engine builder (chevy guy). We got it into the truck and fired it up and proceeded to break-in the CAM at 2000 RPM as specified. It ran smooth and quiet for the first 4 or 5 minutes. Then a slight ticking sound started which quickly became a lound knocking sound. We knew something was wrong and shut it down. Only got about 6 minutes on it and spent several hours of diagnosis and determined that something was making metal chunks so the engine had to come back out.
Turns out that the original mechanic that I paid to fix the timing problem had removed the nylon gears and then inserted the metal spacer that mounts behind the nylon gear along with the new steel gear on the camshaft. We found it just like that so we assumed thats how it was supposed to be and assembled it the same way. Now we have learned that the steel gears have the spacer cast into the part, so with the additional spacer the camshaft had about 3/16"-1/4" of endplay to slide around in. The spacer determines the endplay of the camshaft so with double spacers the cam moves all around. Some of the lobes got half-engaged on the lifters, others dug into the lobe next door. Some lifters dug into the cam bearing surfaces. The timing was jumpy and if we had gone on with the break-in I'm sure the distributor gear would have sheared just like before.
Lessons learned:
#1 Always check your camshaft end play.
#2 On Ford FE engines, don't use any spacer between the cam and the timing gear if it's already built in!
Now I am rebuilding it again... All the metal chunks damaged lots of stuff: New pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, oil pump pickup, cam, lifters, cam bearings, and some machine work.
So I completed the rebuild of my 360FE into a 390FE with the help of a knowledgeable engine builder (chevy guy). We got it into the truck and fired it up and proceeded to break-in the CAM at 2000 RPM as specified. It ran smooth and quiet for the first 4 or 5 minutes. Then a slight ticking sound started which quickly became a lound knocking sound. We knew something was wrong and shut it down. Only got about 6 minutes on it and spent several hours of diagnosis and determined that something was making metal chunks so the engine had to come back out.
Turns out that the original mechanic that I paid to fix the timing problem had removed the nylon gears and then inserted the metal spacer that mounts behind the nylon gear along with the new steel gear on the camshaft. We found it just like that so we assumed thats how it was supposed to be and assembled it the same way. Now we have learned that the steel gears have the spacer cast into the part, so with the additional spacer the camshaft had about 3/16"-1/4" of endplay to slide around in. The spacer determines the endplay of the camshaft so with double spacers the cam moves all around. Some of the lobes got half-engaged on the lifters, others dug into the lobe next door. Some lifters dug into the cam bearing surfaces. The timing was jumpy and if we had gone on with the break-in I'm sure the distributor gear would have sheared just like before.
Lessons learned:
#1 Always check your camshaft end play.
#2 On Ford FE engines, don't use any spacer between the cam and the timing gear if it's already built in!
Now I am rebuilding it again... All the metal chunks damaged lots of stuff: New pistons, rings, bearings, oil pump, oil pump pickup, cam, lifters, cam bearings, and some machine work.
- Redcap
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
That really sucks!
- Happy_Camper
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
Ughh!
thanks for sharing, but I'm real sorry to hear what happened. Put a pit in my stomach. Since you are rebuilding, any thoughts to building a stroker?
thanks for sharing, but I'm real sorry to hear what happened. Put a pit in my stomach. Since you are rebuilding, any thoughts to building a stroker?
Scott
1972 F250 Explorer C/S, 390-2V, Dual exhaust, C6, Goose neck ball in bed
New and improved with Tilt Wheel, Intermittent Wipers, 2005 Bench seat and 5th wheel camper!...
Life is *very* good!
1972 F250 Explorer C/S, 390-2V, Dual exhaust, C6, Goose neck ball in bed
New and improved with Tilt Wheel, Intermittent Wipers, 2005 Bench seat and 5th wheel camper!...
Life is *very* good!
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
It would be great to build a stroker. I made a weak attempt to find a 428 crank locally, but wasn't able to find one easily, and I don't really have the money for it. I'm already stroking it from 360 to 390 and making a lot of changes to it along the way. The 390 crank I bought wasn't damaged at all so I'm going to re-use it, the machine shop said it checks out OK. With the components I'm using it should make 300+ HP and over 400 ft/lbs of torque as a 390.
The new build will be:
1130 Silvolite Hypertetic (sp?) pistons either producing a 9.5:1 comp ratio
390 Cast Crank
C8AE heads, 3 angle valve job
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Holley Avenger 670 CFM carb
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 212/218 @ .050 duration, .487/.493 lift
Matching comp cams lifters, springs, retainers
Hardened valve seats
7/16" oil passage mod, chamfered main journal oil mod
390 Stock rods, resized
Moly Rings
Hi Volume Melling Oil Pump
Upgraded oil pump driveshaft
Stock exhaust manifolds
Pertronix Ignition Module
The new build will be:
1130 Silvolite Hypertetic (sp?) pistons either producing a 9.5:1 comp ratio
390 Cast Crank
C8AE heads, 3 angle valve job
Edelbrock Performer Intake
Holley Avenger 670 CFM carb
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 212/218 @ .050 duration, .487/.493 lift
Matching comp cams lifters, springs, retainers
Hardened valve seats
7/16" oil passage mod, chamfered main journal oil mod
390 Stock rods, resized
Moly Rings
Hi Volume Melling Oil Pump
Upgraded oil pump driveshaft
Stock exhaust manifolds
Pertronix Ignition Module
Scott
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
had the same problem with my 69 when i bought it. I bought it not running guy told me that it had a bad lifter and needed a distributor. talked to him after i found that the cam walked all over and he says "Oh, thats why it was eating distributors". gee ya never mentioned that!the cam had touched two lifters with the same lobe and blew a lifter apart. dug all the metal out with a magnet ( there wasnt much, one lifters worth) put new cam and lifters in and came to life! i was surprised that it hadnt bent a valve or anything. i always have and extra magnet or two stuck on the oil pan for good measure, I imagine there was a little metal that i didnt get out, but nothing ever has come of it.
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
My first FE rebuild ended in needing a new crank and bearings....I put it into an 84 F-150, and had to relocate the oil filter....the relocator had small lines, but I never paid it any attention....anyway, had enough oil pressure, but not volume...maybe 20 miles on new motor and started knocking, after it cooled off it screeched at start up....definately makes you feel woozy....
A 72 F-250 Hi-Boy "project" ( that means sitting untouched for 3 or so years)
And a little 94 F-150 Flareside, 7" higher and 35's...
And a little 94 F-150 Flareside, 7" higher and 35's...
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
That kind of thing happens! I am paying a lot of attention to everything this time, no stone unturned as they say. I'm doing the oiling mods that are recommended this time around and using a high volume oil pump as well. I'm still not sure on the restrictor to the rocker shafts, because I hardly got any oil up there at all before. Maybe with the improvements I'll need it. Previously I could run the motor with the valve covers off and no mess at all there was so little oil.
Scott
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
you better take a closer look as to why your not getting alot of oil up top because without restrictors in the oil feed to the rocker shafts they get flooded up top especially if your using a high volumn pump. You may have a blockage going on to the feed otherwise this could be a problem in the future. one thing folks overlook when rebuilding there engines is the rocker shafts.. if reusing them you need to remove the plug ends and flush the rocker shafts of old debri and old oil sluge stuff buildup inside them as a rule if restrictors are used in the heads that feed the shafts it usally is a jet size of 0.70. this still feeds the heads plenty but without them they get flooded up top with oil. There is no need for that much oil up top with the FE.
Ford Is The Mountain That The Rock fell Off Of.
72 F-250 Camper Special 390 Stroker 419 CID 420 HP Natural Asp 200 HP NOS C-6 Dana 60 4.10
96 F-150 XLT 4X4 5.8 Heavy Duty 4EOD
72 F-250 Camper Special 390 Stroker 419 CID 420 HP Natural Asp 200 HP NOS C-6 Dana 60 4.10
96 F-150 XLT 4X4 5.8 Heavy Duty 4EOD
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
There is definetly an oiling problem to the top then. I took the rockers to the machine shop for inspection and cleaning. They only dribbled oil previously. I'll make sure that I'm getting enough oil and be prepared to install a restrictor once it is oiling properly. Thanks for the info I wasn't really sure how much oil to expect up there.
Scott
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
68 F250 CS LWB
390FE, C6
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Re: 390 Rebuild Failed - Cam destroyed and ground up
Trust me you can get so much oil up there that it can cause the valve covers gaskets to leak in a short period of time as there is only a small passage for it to drain back into the pan it takes awhile for it to return to the pan plus your running a high volumn pump which can drain the stock oil pan quick on a high rpm run down the highway. thus restrictors are a must but it sound like the rocker shafts might have slugh builtup up in the centers causing little oil flow. one other thing of noteworthy the bolt that goes thru the rocker stand that feeds the oil thru has a taper to the bolt so be sure you have the right bolt on that stand,,,its the only one on each side that looks like that.
Ford Is The Mountain That The Rock fell Off Of.
72 F-250 Camper Special 390 Stroker 419 CID 420 HP Natural Asp 200 HP NOS C-6 Dana 60 4.10
96 F-150 XLT 4X4 5.8 Heavy Duty 4EOD
72 F-250 Camper Special 390 Stroker 419 CID 420 HP Natural Asp 200 HP NOS C-6 Dana 60 4.10
96 F-150 XLT 4X4 5.8 Heavy Duty 4EOD