Loose clutch fork brace in the bell housing; problem?

[robroy]

Hi!

Today when I removed my bell housing I noticed that this funny little brace (I think it's used by, or related to, the clutch fork) is loose. I can wiggle it back and forth a little bit.



Is it supposed to be that way? And if it's not supposed to be loose, what's the best way to repair it? It seems to be a permanent thing--it's not held in by bolts that I could tighten.

Thanks very much!
-Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/ballpeen.jpg

Isn't hat a cute little sucker? :) A 4oz hammer.
"put your finger there ;)"

But it's a ball peen hammer...
-actually getting used for what it was made for-! :)

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/file12/nails.jpg

RobRoy, you can fix it with a friggin hammer. LOL :)
Support -only- the other end of the pin you are hammering on.
That last sentence with be the toughest part to figure out.
Also, don't hit it more than needed.
It's not like peening annealed nails down in wood...
but you still need to know when to quit and cal, it good.
If the pin's head is flat on one side you'll have to use a punch, etc.

BTW, BTDT :)
The one on my '75 F150 was loose the first time I took it apart too. :)

Alvin in AZ

[willowbilly3]

I have had those rivets break on my 72 and a few on customer trucks too. Ford used to sell the rivet kit but I have fixed them by taking a grade 8 bolt of the correct size and grinding the head to a countersunk configuration to fit through the bell housing side and not protrudes. Saw the bolts off to the right length so none sticks past the nut and stake the nuts on good.

[Alvin in AZ]

I have had those rivets break on my 72 and a few on customer trucks too.
Ford used to sell the rivet kit but I have fixed them by taking a grade 8 bolt
of the correct size and grinding the head to a countersunk configuration to
fit through the bell housing side and not protrudes. Saw the bolts off to the
right length so none sticks past the nut and stake the nuts on good.

Cool one! :)

What about flat-head Allen bolts? :) {edit: the black Allens are grade 8 spec}
Are they the right shape already?

Alvin in AZ

[robroy]

Alvin and WillowBilly3, thanks for the great replies! Those sound like some good ideas!!!

I have a related question: what would the symptom be, if any, of this part being loose (when the truck's all put together)? Would it make a rattle in the clutch linkage?

Thanks!
-Robroy

[robroy]

Hello Alvin,

Is the method you've described with the ball peen hammer designed to make the rivet thicker where it goes through the metal, to keep it from rattling in there? Or is it designed to pretty the funny loose plate on the rivet further (like driving in a nail)?

I'm standing out in the yard looking at this now but I don't really understand what's going on with it.

Thanks very much!
-Robroy

[robroy]

Assuming that the idea was expanding the diameter of the rivet by smashing it a little bit, I tried the ball peen hammer approach. That didn't get me too far because I couldn't reliably hit the edge of the rivets with sufficient force to do anything (without risking smashing up the bracket itself).

Then I put a punch with a tip about 2/3 the diameter of the rivet heads on the heads, supported the back side of the rivet with a grade eight nut, and hammered away on that. After a few minutes of tapping I finally got it--the bracket was solid as a rock!

All excited, I turned the bell housing over only to discover that I'd actually pressed one of the rivets out the other side a little bit. It didn't look too good. So I thought I'd tidy it up and push the rivet back in, then smash on it again until I got a snug fit.

The rivet went right back in and the bracket was loose again, but this time I cannot hit the rivet in any way that makes it smash enough to get a tight fit again.

I'm not sure how much longer to fight with this before giving up and just grinding the rivets out and trying some bolts.

It LOOKS like I could just let some bolt heads stick out on the back of the housing, even though the rivet heads are counter sunk. I don't see anything back there that the bolt heads would hit; it looks like they clear the transmission case.

Am I wrong here? Do I truly need countersunk fasteners on these things for some reason?

Thanks very much!
-Robroy

[robroy]

Nevermind with the rivets; I'm drilling them out now. Got one out already, thankfully in good enough condition to measure for ordering some replacement fasteners. I like the countersunk allen head bolt idea.

Thanks!
-Robroy

[willowbilly3]

I have had those rivets break on my 72 and a few on customer trucks too.
Ford used to sell the rivet kit but I have fixed them by taking a grade 8 bolt
of the correct size and grinding the head to a countersunk configuration to
fit through the bell housing side and not protrudes. Saw the bolts off to the
right length so none sticks past the nut and stake the nuts on good.

Cool one!

What about flat-head Allen bolts? {edit: the black Allens are grade 8 spec}
Are they the right shape already?

Alvin in AZ

I'm sure those would work fine as long as they have the same taper. If the taper is different than the countersunk hole they would probably work loose. I was just using what I had in the shop.

[robroy]

Hey WillowBilly3,

If the countersunk allen head bolts had heads with a slightly different taper, and there were nuts holding them tightly on the other side, why would they want to come loose?

This'll be important to me soon since today I totally knocked out the two rivets. I'll need to find a good way of getting the bracket back on there.

Thanks!!!
-Robroy

[robroy]

Maybe something like this would work--Alvin this is what you had in mind right?



This should be a pretty close match. Here are the measurements I've taken of the rivet using my desk ruler.

Head diameter (at the end, which is the widest point): 5/8" or a little less (about 0.63")
Width of the main shaft of the rivet: 5/16" (0.3125")
Length of the rivet, including its countersunk head: 15/16" or 1" (hard to say since I smashed the end up some).
Length of the countersunk portion (the head): 3/16" (0.188")

-Robroy

[averagef250]

5/16" is the hole size for 3/8-16 threads if you want to bypass the nuts altogether. Or you can put 5/16" threads in a 5/16" hole using a helicoil.

[Alvin in AZ]

Doggonit, sorry didn't know this thread was still going, this thread was before
I got my threads subscription stuff worked out.

Guessing you've got it all worked out by now? :)

The way I would do it is, do it just like Willow said he does 'em. LOL :)

In my words tho...
I'd use the size of flat-head-bolt it needed and use -no- washers of-any-kind,
and cut the bolt down until it's sticking abouve the nut "about one third the
diameter of the bolt" and brad down the end of the bolt over the nut with
the other end fully supported on ~1/2" diameter rob clamped in the vise. :)

BTDT by myself many times and it's tricky but can be done.

If the taper of the flat head bolt didn't match the bell housing I'd re-counter
sink the bell housing to match the bolt with the commonly available tool for
the job.

------------------------

Yes. When you peen a pin the pin swells in diameter inside the hole but just
so far, so the trick is to match the size of the hole to the pin material. :)

Alvin in AZ

[robroy]

5/16" is the hole size for 3/8-16 threads if you want to bypass the nuts altogether. Or you can put 5/16" threads in a 5/16" hole using a helicoil.

Hey Dustin thanks for your reply! Yeah putting threads in there does sound like a great idea. Since there are cone-shaped dips in the bell housing that correspond to the countersunk bolt heads, I suppose I'd be putting the threads mainly in the loose bracket instead of the bell housing itself.

But since the rivets stuck through a fair distance, I think I can put nuts on there without any clearance issues. And to make sure they don't come undone, I plan to use Nord-Lock washers under new, all metal pinch nuts.

Doggonit, sorry didn't know this thread was still going, this thread was before
I got my threads subscription stuff worked out.

Guessing you've got it all worked out by now?

Hey Alvin thanks for replying! It's not all worked out in the sense that I haven't actually done anything physical yet, since my truck's located fifty miles from the town I work in (I only work on it on the weekends). But it is worked out in the sense that I've prepared for several good methods and ordered the hardware I need, so I should find something that works when I get down there on Saturday.

The way I would do it is, do it just like Willow said he does 'em. LOL

In my words tho...
I'd use the size of flat-head-bolt it needed and use -no- washers of-any-kind,
and cut the bolt down until it's sticking abouve the nut "about one third the
diameter of the bolt" and brad down the end of the bolt over the nut with
the other end fully supported on ~1/2" diameter rob clamped in the vise.

BTDT by myself many times and it's tricky but can be done.

If the taper of the flat head bolt didn't match the bell housing I'd re-counter
sink the bell housing to match the bolt with the commonly available tool for
the job.

Alvin, thanks for the words of wisdom here. I think I have a plan with my new countersunk allen head bolts, but I will revisit your method if my plan doesn't work as well as I'm hoping it will. Thanks!

Yes. When you peen a pin the pin swells in diameter inside the hole but just
so far, so the trick is to match the size of the hole to the pin material.

I see! Got it. Thanks for your great advice on that. I could see what you were talking about when I started giving the end of the rivet some good strong taps with a punch and hammer. Too bad that method didn't work out in my scenario!

One more question: the holes in the bell housing and bracket fit a 5/16" bolt, but I don't have any way to buy hardened 5/16" bolts. I can, however, buy Class 10.9 1/4" bolts.

Considering the fact that I can put more torque on a hardened bolt (I think), which is the better choice: the non-hardened bolt that's a snug fit, or the hardened bolt that's a loose fit? I think even though it's smaller, the 1/4" bolt would still be held firmly in place by nature of its countersunk head combined with the pulling force of the torque on the nut. But I'm not experienced enough to know for sure!

Thanks for the great advice! I'll post photos of the finished product.
-Robroy

[Alvin in AZ]

5/16" is the hole size for 3/8-16 threads if you want to bypass the nuts altogether.

Oooo I really liked the sound of that! :)
...right up until the "no nuts" part. LOL ;)
I'd thread it, then put a jam nut on it, then brad it. LOL :)
The idea is you fix it good and that's the last time that part will ever be removed, just as if
it were riveted again.

Hey Dustin thanks for your reply! Yeah putting threads in there does sound like a great idea.
Since there are cone-shaped dips in the bell housing that correspond to the countersunk bolt
heads, I suppose I'd be putting the threads mainly in the loose bracket instead of the bell
housing itself.

Either one, and if the head of the flat headed bolts are too big... grind 'em away since it's not
to be removed again anyway

But since the rivets stuck through a fair distance, I think I can put nuts on there without any
clearance issues. And to make sure they don't come undone, I plan to use Nord-Lock washers
under new, all metal pinch nuts.

I'm sure the NordLock washers are fine stuff(!) but you don't need that sort of thing in this
situation. Bradding over the end of the bolt is better.

They don't need to be grade 8 bolts, grade 5 will do the job, betcha the rivets were not more
than grade 5. A spark test would tell us and I've got some rivets off a radius arm bracket I
can spark test so I'll do that and report back. The clutch had problems at one some point and
caused the loose pivot otherwise it'd still be tight, IME.

------------------------

I was a mainline railroad signal maintainer and something I was responsible for was the power
switch machines and the switch points they throw. Talk about someting that takes a beating
and a good shaking, huh? ;) One thing I fiNgured out (all by myself;) was double nutting the bolts.
Leave off all the washers and spacers it didn't -absolutely have to have- especailly them stinkin
split ring lock washers and the new bolts that came with the switch points would still be in place
after ~15 years when the switch point would be replaced.

The gov't required a cotter pin, and that was good thing to have if split ring lock washers were
involved and one nut because the cotter pin would prevent the nut from falling all the way off...
but that's all. A single nut setup was lucky to last 6 months! No kidding. And when you'd find a
loose nut rattling on the bolt, both the bolt and nut were ruined too. Just in the matter of a
couple weeks the bolt's diameter could be easily seen that it had been reduced, worn away by
the nut and looking inside the nut wear could be seen there too. No kidding.

The smallest ones were 3/4" bolts on up to 1+1/4" bolts.

Ok, so I told others about this! :)
No one was interested. :/
No overtime money in that, see?
You'd think the supervision would be interested wouldn't you?
Heck no. :/
Quittin time and the pay check, is all most 'mericans are interested in.
Sad but true. :/
I wanted the trains to get through and make us -all- some money.
Man was I dumb! :(

Alvin in AZ