Beginning bodywork....need lots of advice

[FORDification]

OK, the time has come for me to start doing research into bodywork and painting. The bottom of the cab is down to bare metal and since I was told by the techs at Herculiner that I'd need to spray it with an etch primer prior to applying the product, I decided that I needed to go ahead and research all the products available and get enough to do the rest of the vehicle at the same time. So until I can get a plan of attack figured out, my project is stalled.

Here's the deal: I've never done bodywork in my life, aside from filling a few holes with Bondo and hitting it with rattlecan primer....and it never progressed from that point. This time around, I want to do it right....and I DO want to do it all myself, so I'm hitting all of you seasoned veterans up for advice on what works and what doesn't. I've been spending some time on the bodywork forums doing a lot of reading...however, I will admit that I'm completely overwhelmed by the choices, terminology, etc. etc.

I'm doing this on a very limited budget, so unfortunately this will be the deciding factor on what I get. I was given a Binks Model 7 gun which is what I'd like to use for everything, including the primer and color. Since this was the gun of choice for auto refinishers prior to the current HVLP guns, I'm assuming that I could use it for all finishes...it would just require different spray tips. Also, my compressor is a 5.5HP 13CFM 80-gallon single-stage unit, so I realize it's gonna be just barely adequate, but it's what I've got, so it's what'll be used.

I haven't decided yet on whether to go with a two-stage (2K) basecoat/clearcoat or a single stage. However, since I'm not after a show truck and it's gonna be a daily driver, I'm kinda leaning towards a single-stage urethane, because of ease of application and price.

So over the next week or so, I intend to spend as much spare time as possible on the bodywork forums trying to digest as much info as I can, but since I know there are a few of you who have been down this road a time or two, I'd like to pick your brains and get some advice, and maybe get a good bodywork thread going that future visitors can refer to. I'd really prefer those responding to actually have first-hand knowledge of what you're recommending, as opposed to "my brother's cousin says he used such-and-such and it worked great".....know what I mean?

[FORDification]

whoa! Some good info there. Thanks! It's the super-basic info like this that most sites neglect to give, figuring that you'd already know it. However, as how things like this go, sometimes answers just bring more questions, so I'll be asking plenty of those too as we go. For now we'll just stick with the prep work.

The truck will be painted in the shop. I MIGHT put together a makeshift booth to control overspray, but I might not....and all drying will be at ambient temps.

Based on your earlier recommendation for the Omni line of primer, I did some research on that and was convinced, so that's what I'll go with. The Omni paints aren't getting good reviews...most say it sprays too thin and so multiple coats are required for good coverage, which often ends up costing more than a PPG color. It's pretty much agreed that you shouldn't mix manufacturers when choosing primer and paint, but I'm assuming that since Omni is a low-cost PPG line, that I can safely use PPG color over Omni primer/surfacer, right?

I can understand the importance of treating the metal first, but what if the paint hasn't been completely removed? That is, there are small patches of factory paint and/or primer remaining. Would using the metal treatment on these patches have any adverse affects? That is, in order to use the metal treatment, does it absolutely have to be 100% down to bare metal everywhere?

What is the difference between 'etch primer' and 'epoxy primer'? The Herculiner rep specially told me to use an etch primer on the bare metal prior to applying their product. The Omni MP170 you recommend is an epoxy primer, the MP176 is an etch primer. Do I need to use the etch primer first, then the epoxy primer?

Let's say that after treating the metal and spraying with primer, I get to work filling dents. In the course of the sanding I break through to bare metal. Do I need to reprime or will the primer/surfacer stick to the bare metal?

What sandpaper grits would you recommend using and in what order, and what should be used just prior to the sealer?

What product would you recommend for the guide coat?

[morganater]

A few quick questions in the 'random bodywork thread' for you also, Professional.

How long is a coat of primer good for on top of old paint, exposed all the weather?

What would you say is the best way to prepare an temporary indoor room (inside of a warehouse) for sanding and not letting out any dust?

If I, as an ameteur, were to do "some of the preparation work myself" where would you say is a good stopping point to hand the truck over to the paint shop? If at all?

[crazy larry]

etch primer reacts with the metal, used mostly on bare metal, is porous to moisture. epoxy primer is a catalyzed mixture that is impervious to damn near anything. in fact, the school of thought in collision repair is to lay a base of epoxy primer, and then do any filler work on top of it. do not leave unused epoxy primer in your gun or cup, it will set up.

i would not use anything other than an EVERCOAT product as far as filler goes. on the catalyst for it, just run a single ribbon across your glob of filler and mix til one color. do not mix up more than a third cup at a time, you will waste it as it kicks, and most of it is going to end up on the floor sanded off.

get a fender and practice on it before you get ready to paint. get good on the fender, and your guaranteed better results when it comes time to paint your truck. if your thinking about the cost of material that your practicing with, think about using 5-600 dollars worth of paint on your truck and not knowing what to do..... get a half gallon and use it on the fender.....

if you haven't already, go check out the body forum at HR.com.... there are a couple of pro's who can answer any question you could have way better than i can....

[DuckRyder]

Etch primer (or "Self Etching Primer") is for use over bare metal to and allows you to eliminate the bare metal wash treatment if you wish. Duplicolor, SEM, and Seymour (sp) all offer a rattle can self etching primer.

Using the etch wash or self etching primer over small patches of old top/primer coat won't hurt anything.

If you want maximum durability, using a bare metal prep wash, then epoxy primer is probably the ultimate solution.

I'm sure you know, but these paints are dangerous stuff particularly the urethane topcoats. You really need proper respirators and a suit to cover your bare skin. Also a base clear job is more repairable than a single stage if that concerns you.

It is probably incompatible with your low cost idea, but I know two painters who refuse to spray anything but Sikkens products.

[jzjames]

Wouldnt you want to paint the entire cab the actual body color before applying the Herculiner on the underside? Jay

[grenadierbeef]

Here is another list;

self etching primer is used for biting into the metal

filler:
The bigger the glob the better the job is not true.

Do not fill holes with filler. weld the holes grind the weld and hammer and dolly them to as close as original. Then use light coats of filler

Try to get all dents to within a 1/4 inch depth or better. Any deeper the filler will start to crack and lift.

Make multiple thin passes with the filler working the filler between passes.
to maximize the sand papers life make one or two grating passes with a 24 or 36 grit on a sanding block before the filler has completly dried usually when it has a little tack left. Body filler is made up of Talc and resins when the filler dries the resins rise to the top and give the cured filler a glossy look. If you dive right into the filler it will gum up your paper and you will be changing it very shortly.

I always work my filler it this order .
36 grit on orbital sander (bondo buster). Fast leveling dont go crazy
80 grit on a sanding block. More controlled leveling
180 grit on sanding block. Fine leveling and removing sanding scratches
Then i shoot primer surfacer
shoot a guide coat
then block sand with 180grit and then 320 grit
If you are painting over original paint you can get red scotch brite pads to do the scuffing. It gives the new sealer or paint something to gab hold of. You can use this in place of wet sanding

[FORDification]

Since I posted the original question, I've been online every night virtually from the time I got home until I went to bed about midnight, just researching products and procedures. I didn't realize how much it was on my mind until it dawned on me that both yesterday morning and this morning I woke up with the realization that I'd actually been DREAMING about it the night before too!

Thanks for all the advice. Based on what I've learned here and elsewhere online, I'm putting together a rather detailed plan of attack. It'll probably take me another day or two to get it ready, and when it's done I'll post it for evaluation. I guess the main reason for this is my inexperience, and my CRS...(Can't Remember S***). I just want to have this all figured out beforehand, every little detail involving products needed and procedures to follow, so I can have a cheat sheet to follow to refresh my memory as I progress.

[FORDification]

Oh yeah....had a couple more questions I forgot to ask:

1) The recommendations here have been to apply the epoxy primer, then filler, then primer/surfacer. It seems most of the other bodywork forums I've visited suggest the order as epoxy primer, then primer/surfacer, then filler. Does it really matter on the order?

2) What about seam filler? If I'm going to use the factory-type seam filler in places where it was used by the factory, when should this be applied?

[FoMoCo]

I think the best method is to apply filler over bare metal, then epoxy, followed by surfacer. You cannot get a good featherd edge with filler, therefore, the primers with smooth everything out. I would apply seam sealer before paint, and after surfacer. This would ensure the primer doesnt crack over top the sealer.

Nick

[SmokeyBear]

Oh yeah....had a couple more questions I forgot to ask:

1) The recommendations here have been to apply the epoxy primer, then filler, then primer/surfacer. It seems most of the other bodywork forums I've visited suggest the order as epoxy primer, then primer/surfacer, then filler. Does it really matter on the order?

2) What about seam filler? If I'm going to use the factory-type seam filler in places where it was used by the factory, when should this be applied?

1) Use the filler on bare scuffed metal to give it something to bite into. If you put filler on too slick of a surface it won't hold. When it's leveled use primer (at least enough to be able to get the sanding scratches out). If there are any imperfections left like pinholes from the filler use putty to fill those. Then surfacer.

2) Seam sealer should be used after primer, and it needs to be completely dry before anything is sprayed on it. As it dries it shrinks and will cause paint to crack.

[cdeal28078]

Hey Keith, I'm not a painter but I painted my own truck like you're wanting to do.
I remember how excited I was when I was getting mine ready to paint.
I worked on mine under a tent in the back yard. I had'nt built my shop yet then.
I used the Omni products and have no complaints about them but don't know enough to know what to complain about.
I can say to use the guide coats when sanding.
I was worried about doing the painting itself when I should have worried alot more about the body work. I actually layed a pretty dang good paint job on the truck and get many compliments about it.
My body work really sucked though. I did'nt block sand near enough and you can still see my featheredges if you sight down the sides.
I used a single stage paint. The original 71 Swss-Aqua. I did this about 4-5 years ago I guess and the paint is starting to fade a bit between waxing, at least on the hood and roof.
I plan on replacing my cab when I get the time and money to do it, mainly due to a lady running a light and doing some damage to the floor. Plus the cowls are rusting in a place that's hard to fix. When I do this I plan on going back and fixing all my bad bodywork and painting it the same color but in a base coat clear coat paint.

Hope this helps some as I figure we have about the same experience on things and maybe reading it from someone without any experience before his first paint job might help you not make the same mistakes I did. Make any sense?
clint